Not the One to Answerthis
wrote: You know it if you
really think about it.
Because Java plays as iut
is FLOSS and it is not.
So we go LAMP and say
F)/= off!
And yeah, I just had Java
this semester and it is
true: Java SUCKS!
Next semester guess what
I am taking? Python!
Long live LAMP (as in PHP
right now, and PHP/Python
by next year)
Stop writing crappy
articles and DO Y OUR
JOB! Go program some app
in Java and see if anyone
uses it.. And I'll gte my
Google Apps account and
make a Hello World over
there and send you a
link!
Peace
That's why!
Dylan Tynan wrote: There
were 7 pages of responses
above, so, I confess to
only reading a couple,
so, forgive me if I
repeat too many points
that were hashed through
already.....
The question posed is why
do 'cool kids' (or anyone
really) choose something
like PHP or Ruby rather
than Java. I saw a lot
of answers above that are
certainly correct -- it's
really a bunch of reasons
of course, but I think I
have a handle on the main
factors, which might be a
little different than the
"java is too complex"
crowd:
1. The primary reason is
that PHP & Ruby (and
others) do a great job
for most web efforts, and
Java does as well. The
question could have
easily been posed by a
Ruby guy about PHP, or a
PHP guy about Perl, or a
Perl guy about Java. The
fact is, all of them are
mature enough & powerful
enough to handle most web
task...
Dan Tripp wrote: >
Because they've been
dooped into thinking you
have to
> compile Java
servlets and beans to use
Java or that you
> need Struts or
Hibernate of JSF. You
don't. You can just
> do everything in JSP
if you want a quick and
dirty PHP or
> Ruby like Java
experience.
Who have folks been
"duped" by? That seems
pretty absurd to me.
I'd guess, though, if
anybody's been doing any
"duping" it's software
developers who create
Java frameworks and try
to pass them off as
necessary and also book
publishers who want to
sell you books on those
frameworks.
I'm no fan of the "one
language to rule them
all" mentality that a lot
of folks seems to embrace
in favor of supporting
their language of choice.
I agree with Chad
Fowler/ Dave Thomas'
assertions about learning
a new language "every
year*" because that kee...
Dan Tripp wrote: I
started with PHP and
Perl, later spent some
time learning (some)
Java, and now I'm all
into Ruby (and Rails).
PHP was awesome, and
opened up the world of
web development for me.
After a while, I thought
"maybe I should learn
Java" so I gave it a
crack and read and
re-read Bruce Eckel's
"Thinking in Java." I
tried to wade through the
acronym soup that Java
Web Application
Development seemed to be,
but in the end my
experience with Java was
that it flat-out hurt my
brain.
When I encountered Ruby
(and Rails) it "just made
sense" to me, and it
continues to make sense
to me. I recently worked
on some PHP code for a
friend, and I found it
tedious and a bit
irritating to work with.
I'd bet that if I spent
time re-learning OO PHP
and used some of the cool
"new" stuff (like the
Cake framework, etc.),
th...
Tim wrote: I've worked
with the spectrum of
languages and
environments, from
mainframe Cobol, to
client/server with
Powerbuilder, to web with
Java/JSP. The style has
progressed from a
monolithic 5000 line
cobol program (easy to
maintain) to 5000
several-line code
snippets or settings in
various places like
taglibs and xml
descriptors (a nightmare
as the app grows). The
mindset that goes along
with Java and the way it
is presented by Sun is
"let's take a simple
problem and give it the
most complex solution
possible". Case in point:
JSTL. Why learn another
(useless and cryptic)
language when we can use
java snippets and we ALL
know Java already! We're
already using Java,
Javascript, HTML, SQL,
and a framework like
Struts in any given
project, so why add
another when its not
necessary? That's the
stupidity that turns
people away from Java.
Deanston wrote: Same
reason why JavaScript
never went away despite
major forces trying to
ruin its USABILITY and
UNIVERSAL appeal with
annoying proprietary
formats like VBScript,
Jscript, .NET, applets,
JSP/JSF/Faces, Flash,
etc. The people decided
that JS is still the most
user friendly dynamic web
standard on the browser
client - and the browser
is still what the web
user sees first, not
middleware logic - and
turned out PHP/Ruby are
the most efficient
glue-code to put together
dynamic JS for web app
UI. Look at the
popularity of REST, Ajax,
and SOAP - the web trend
is toward efficiency, not
complexity. Now if the
Java community can come
up with a way to make 90%
of the ISPs to host Java
enabled sites for as
cheap and simple as LAMP
packages, and convince
Google and others to
release their APIs in
Java only instead of
JavaScript, maybe, just
maybe, more people will
learn Java.
Grant Alan Friedline
wrote: Oooh oooh oooh can
I answer this one (hand
in the air like the
annoying 5th grader who
answers every question)!
Where to start. Okay,
first and foremost if you
get hosting from a
"normal" web host PHP
comes bundled in. PHP is
free, fast, and well
documented, so why do I
have to go looking for
alternatives? Finally,
by the time you figure
out what a WAR file is
you could have read War
And Peace. Now if you
don't mind, I'm going
back to hang out with the
cool kids.
Michal wrote: Doing what
everybody is doing is the
best way for a failure.
Java lacks a dynamism.
That's what Ruby has. To
build website you don't
need miriad of
frameworks, you need
something simple. Java
doesn't provide that.
Java is very constraining
environment. And most of
those milions of Java
developers are very bad
software developers.
Their software simply
sucks - just look around.
Springboard Software
wrote: Trackback Added:
Choosing Ruby or PHP over
Java?; In a recent
article on CRM Developers
Journal, Coach Wei asks:
Why Do ‘Cool
Kids’ Choose Ruby
or PHP to Build Websites
Instead of Java?
Here is a question that
I have been pondering on
and off for quite a
while: Why do ‘cool
kids...
darayush wrote:
@lifewithryan - Agree
with your comment.
You're right about the OO
part and its only
partially true. I was
referring to the part
where Ruby/PHP code
atleast to me just seems
much easier to read and
copy from the web (monkey
see monkey do) when I'm
building sites than doing
the same with Java/J2EE.
lifewithryan wrote:
@darayush:
I just want to addrress
#4 -- I agree with your
other points and think
they're valid, however
while Java suffers from
some misconceptions, one
of the common
misconceptions with PHP
is that its all
scripts-based. Not true,
I haven't release a
script-based website in a
long time. My sites are
very truly OO. Ruby is
ALL OO as everything in
Ruby is an object so,
point #4 is kinda
misleading for the
newbie. I think this
common misconception is
why the Java folks
dismiss PHP so easily.
That being said, its
clear that even the Java
people know that Java is
getting too heavy
handed...why else would
we have Groovy/Grails
now? (I'm using that
right now on a project
and would probably use it
more often if Java
hosting wasn't so
friggin' expensive.
Having said that, even if
Java hosting becam...
darayush wrote: I think
this article is like the
dangling chad from
Florida. It starts with a
very potent question and
in the end leaves the
reader clueless, infact I
was looking for the
next/page2 link thinking
we're still talking.
Anyways here's my 2c's
being a weekend PHP/Ruby
developer and having used
Java earlier in my
career.
There are 5
things that are working
against Java today as not
being the prime platform
for website development.
#1 - The perception that
Java is best used as a
middle tier logic
processing language.
#2 - The fact that as a
novice you can these days
Google and pull together
a website much faster
using Ruby or PHP than
Googling the term Java.
#3 - Java and its
outgrowths have become
too complex for their own
good that often carries a
heavy baggage and now
needs some undoing to
make it lightweight....
Murali wrote: People have
to realize not to abuse
uncluttered feedbacks
from people with
advertisement and that
too at the cost of
sys-con.com. Please don't
even visit
www.indiajobplace.com or
www.indiajobster.com.
Need to teach a lesson to
these b*s.
Rochak Chauhan wrote:
Well guys, gone are the
days when is was safe to
make the statement "Java
is the answer, what was
the question?"
In "olden" days, people
coded web application in
C and JAVA(JSP) for a
very simple reason, and
the reason was lack of
alternatives !
Today in my opinion
building / coding a web
application in JAVA is
like killing a housefly
with a bazooka. I am not
saying that you can not
do that. Of source you
can, but then you are
working hard, not smart
:)
PHP and ROR have come a
long long way and now
ready to handle any
enterprise level
application. Open your
eyes guys.. Facebook and
Flick are running on PHP
and not JAVA.
Why ? well... its the
rule #1 of coding..
KISS !!
Keep
It
Simple
Stupid
Talking about frameworks,
IDE and platforms.. PHP
and ROR have all now..
for dog sake... even SUN
is adding ...
George wrote: Script
Kiddies use PHP / Rails
because they don't know
what RAS (reliability,
availability,
serviceability) means. CF
too, has this problem
even though it's based on
Java Technology.
I guess once they grown
up and figure out that
systems have to be
reliable. 99% of these
script kiddies don't even
understand what
transaction demarcation.
Here is a question that I have been pondering on and off for quite a while: Why do "cool kids" choose Ruby or PHP to build websites instead of Java?
I have to admit that I do not have an answer.
Why do I even care? Because I am a Java developer. Like many Java developers, I get along with Java well. Not only the language itself, but the development environments (Eclipse for example), step-by-step debugging helper, wide availability of libraries and code snippets, and the readily accessible information on almost any technical question I may have on Java via Google. Last but not least, I go to JavaOne and see 10,000 people that talk and walk just like me.
The other reason that I ponder this question is that the power of Java is a perfect fit for the areas where websites may need more than markups or scripting, such as middleware logic. PHP and Ruby etc are cool for building pages, but they are not ideal candidates for building middleware logic. Given that Java covers the "high end" of the spectrum well (where sophisticated processing is needed), wouldn't it be great to use Java all the way?
Is it Java as a programming language too difficult to use, comparing with those scripting oriented interpreted languages? Yes, this maybe the reason. But there are 5 million Java developers out there already, and millions of developers make a living by write server side Java code. A lot of websites are built by these Java developers, and somehow they choose to use PHP or Ruby instead. Why? It is even more puzzling that I have seen quite a few Enterprise Java people decided against Java - when they decided to build their web 2.0 site, they went for PHP even though they have to learn PHP.
Is it the lack of tooling? I think there are more tools for Java than, say, Ruby.
Is it the lack of frameworks? I bet there are more Java frameworks than the population in China.
OK, a lot of websites are fairly simple, mainly composed of markup pages, scripts and some lightweight logic on the server side, where PHP and Ruby are good for. Java maybe an overkill for such websites. But there are a lot of websites that are much more sophisticated than "lightweight" logic on the server side. For example, FaceBook was relatively simple initially, but now with FaceBook API and Platform, its complexity is growing. Why not use Java for such websites?
So what is missing from the Java world? What is the ideal architecture to build a website using Java?
Option 1: JSP/Servlet with a Java Servlet engine (or even an application server): This is the dominant architecture for Enterprise web applications. But it clearly has not been appealing for building websites in comparison to PHP or Ruby;
Option 2: JavaServer Faces: JSF is the new kid on the block. Is it going to make building websites easier? Probably not. It is designed for simplifying building form-based applications.
Option 3: Using a Java based content management system (CMS)? I have come across many CMS systems over the last few years, and haven't been impressed by anyone of them.
So what is the ideal architecture for building a highly scalable, sophisticated (potentially. Your site will become sophisticated if your site is very successful), easy to build and easy to maintain website, while using Java?
About Coach Wei Coach Wei is the founder and CTO of Nexaweb (www.nexaweb.com), developers of the leading software platform for building and deploying Web 2.0 and AJAX applications. Previously, Coach played a key role at EMC Corporation in the development of a new generation of storage network management software. Coach has his master's degree from MIT, holds several patents, is the author of several technology publications including JDJ, Web 2.0 Journal, and AJAXWorld Magazine, and is an industry advocate for the proliferation of open standards.
Not the One to Answerthis
wrote: You know it if you
really think about it.
Because Java plays as iut
is FLOSS and it is not.
So we go LAMP and say
F)/= off!
And yeah, I just had Java
this semester and it is
true: Java SUCKS!
Next semester guess what
I am taking? Python!
Long live LAMP (as in PHP
right now, and PHP/Python
by next year)
Stop writing crappy
articles and DO Y OUR
JOB! Go program some app
in Java and see if anyone
uses it.. And I'll gte my
Google Apps account and
make a Hello World over
there and send you a
link!
Peace
That's why!
Dylan Tynan wrote: There
were 7 pages of responses
above, so, I confess to
only reading a couple,
so, forgive me if I
repeat too many points
that were hashed through
already.....
The question posed is why
do 'cool kids' (or anyone
really) choose something
like PHP or Ruby rather
than Java. I saw a lot
of answers above that are
certainly correct -- it's
really a bunch of reasons
of course, but I think I
have a handle on the main
factors, which might be a
little different than the
"java is too complex"
crowd:
1. The primary reason is
that PHP & Ruby (and
others) do a great job
for most web efforts, and
Java does as well. The
question could have
easily been posed by a
Ruby guy about PHP, or a
PHP guy about Perl, or a
Perl guy about Java. The
fact is, all of them are
mature enough & powerful
enough to handle most web
task...
Dan Tripp wrote: >
Because they've been
dooped into thinking you
have to
> compile Java
servlets and beans to use
Java or that you
> need Struts or
Hibernate of JSF. You
don't. You can just
> do everything in JSP
if you want a quick and
dirty PHP or
> Ruby like Java
experience.
Who have folks been
"duped" by? That seems
pretty absurd to me.
I'd guess, though, if
anybody's been doing any
"duping" it's software
developers who create
Java frameworks and try
to pass them off as
necessary and also book
publishers who want to
sell you books on those
frameworks.
I'm no fan of the "one
language to rule them
all" mentality that a lot
of folks seems to embrace
in favor of supporting
their language of choice.
I agree with Chad
Fowler/ Dave Thomas'
assertions about learning
a new language "every
year*" because that kee...
Dan Tripp wrote: I
started with PHP and
Perl, later spent some
time learning (some)
Java, and now I'm all
into Ruby (and Rails).
PHP was awesome, and
opened up the world of
web development for me.
After a while, I thought
"maybe I should learn
Java" so I gave it a
crack and read and
re-read Bruce Eckel's
"Thinking in Java." I
tried to wade through the
acronym soup that Java
Web Application
Development seemed to be,
but in the end my
experience with Java was
that it flat-out hurt my
brain.
When I encountered Ruby
(and Rails) it "just made
sense" to me, and it
continues to make sense
to me. I recently worked
on some PHP code for a
friend, and I found it
tedious and a bit
irritating to work with.
I'd bet that if I spent
time re-learning OO PHP
and used some of the cool
"new" stuff (like the
Cake framework, etc.),
th...
Tim wrote: I've worked
with the spectrum of
languages and
environments, from
mainframe Cobol, to
client/server with
Powerbuilder, to web with
Java/JSP. The style has
progressed from a
monolithic 5000 line
cobol program (easy to
maintain) to 5000
several-line code
snippets or settings in
various places like
taglibs and xml
descriptors (a nightmare
as the app grows). The
mindset that goes along
with Java and the way it
is presented by Sun is
"let's take a simple
problem and give it the
most complex solution
possible". Case in point:
JSTL. Why learn another
(useless and cryptic)
language when we can use
java snippets and we ALL
know Java already! We're
already using Java,
Javascript, HTML, SQL,
and a framework like
Struts in any given
project, so why add
another when its not
necessary? That's the
stupidity that turns
people away from Java.
Deanston wrote: Same
reason why JavaScript
never went away despite
major forces trying to
ruin its USABILITY and
UNIVERSAL appeal with
annoying proprietary
formats like VBScript,
Jscript, .NET, applets,
JSP/JSF/Faces, Flash,
etc. The people decided
that JS is still the most
user friendly dynamic web
standard on the browser
client - and the browser
is still what the web
user sees first, not
middleware logic - and
turned out PHP/Ruby are
the most efficient
glue-code to put together
dynamic JS for web app
UI. Look at the
popularity of REST, Ajax,
and SOAP - the web trend
is toward efficiency, not
complexity. Now if the
Java community can come
up with a way to make 90%
of the ISPs to host Java
enabled sites for as
cheap and simple as LAMP
packages, and convince
Google and others to
release their APIs in
Java only instead of
JavaScript, maybe, just
maybe, more people will
learn Java.
Grant Alan Friedline
wrote: Oooh oooh oooh can
I answer this one (hand
in the air like the
annoying 5th grader who
answers every question)!
Where to start. Okay,
first and foremost if you
get hosting from a
"normal" web host PHP
comes bundled in. PHP is
free, fast, and well
documented, so why do I
have to go looking for
alternatives? Finally,
by the time you figure
out what a WAR file is
you could have read War
And Peace. Now if you
don't mind, I'm going
back to hang out with the
cool kids.
Michal wrote: Doing what
everybody is doing is the
best way for a failure.
Java lacks a dynamism.
That's what Ruby has. To
build website you don't
need miriad of
frameworks, you need
something simple. Java
doesn't provide that.
Java is very constraining
environment. And most of
those milions of Java
developers are very bad
software developers.
Their software simply
sucks - just look around.
Springboard Software
wrote: Trackback Added:
Choosing Ruby or PHP over
Java?; In a recent
article on CRM Developers
Journal, Coach Wei asks:
Why Do ‘Cool
Kids’ Choose Ruby
or PHP to Build Websites
Instead of Java?
Here is a question that
I have been pondering on
and off for quite a
while: Why do ‘cool
kids...
darayush wrote:
@lifewithryan - Agree
with your comment.
You're right about the OO
part and its only
partially true. I was
referring to the part
where Ruby/PHP code
atleast to me just seems
much easier to read and
copy from the web (monkey
see monkey do) when I'm
building sites than doing
the same with Java/J2EE.
lifewithryan wrote:
@darayush:
I just want to addrress
#4 -- I agree with your
other points and think
they're valid, however
while Java suffers from
some misconceptions, one
of the common
misconceptions with PHP
is that its all
scripts-based. Not true,
I haven't release a
script-based website in a
long time. My sites are
very truly OO. Ruby is
ALL OO as everything in
Ruby is an object so,
point #4 is kinda
misleading for the
newbie. I think this
common misconception is
why the Java folks
dismiss PHP so easily.
That being said, its
clear that even the Java
people know that Java is
getting too heavy
handed...why else would
we have Groovy/Grails
now? (I'm using that
right now on a project
and would probably use it
more often if Java
hosting wasn't so
friggin' expensive.
Having said that, even if
Java hosting becam...
darayush wrote: I think
this article is like the
dangling chad from
Florida. It starts with a
very potent question and
in the end leaves the
reader clueless, infact I
was looking for the
next/page2 link thinking
we're still talking.
Anyways here's my 2c's
being a weekend PHP/Ruby
developer and having used
Java earlier in my
career.
There are 5
things that are working
against Java today as not
being the prime platform
for website development.
#1 - The perception that
Java is best used as a
middle tier logic
processing language.
#2 - The fact that as a
novice you can these days
Google and pull together
a website much faster
using Ruby or PHP than
Googling the term Java.
#3 - Java and its
outgrowths have become
too complex for their own
good that often carries a
heavy baggage and now
needs some undoing to
make it lightweight....
Murali wrote: People have
to realize not to abuse
uncluttered feedbacks
from people with
advertisement and that
too at the cost of
sys-con.com. Please don't
even visit
www.indiajobplace.com or
www.indiajobster.com.
Need to teach a lesson to
these b*s.
Rochak Chauhan wrote:
Well guys, gone are the
days when is was safe to
make the statement "Java
is the answer, what was
the question?"
In "olden" days, people
coded web application in
C and JAVA(JSP) for a
very simple reason, and
the reason was lack of
alternatives !
Today in my opinion
building / coding a web
application in JAVA is
like killing a housefly
with a bazooka. I am not
saying that you can not
do that. Of source you
can, but then you are
working hard, not smart
:)
PHP and ROR have come a
long long way and now
ready to handle any
enterprise level
application. Open your
eyes guys.. Facebook and
Flick are running on PHP
and not JAVA.
Why ? well... its the
rule #1 of coding..
KISS !!
Keep
It
Simple
Stupid
Talking about frameworks,
IDE and platforms.. PHP
and ROR have all now..
for dog sake... even SUN
is adding ...
George wrote: Script
Kiddies use PHP / Rails
because they don't know
what RAS (reliability,
availability,
serviceability) means. CF
too, has this problem
even though it's based on
Java Technology.
I guess once they grown
up and figure out that
systems have to be
reliable. 99% of these
script kiddies don't even
understand what
transaction demarcation.
Before I get into any
sort of detail, I think
it's important to say
that there is more than
one way to approach an
MVC. Go ahead, ask a few
seasoned developers how
they would hack together
a project like this and
each one will give you a
completely different
answer. I'm going to do
my
Brian Stevens, the Chief
Technology Officer and
Vice President of
Engineering of Red Hat,
delivered his
Virtualization Keynote
'The Future of the
Virtual Enterprise' at
SYS-CON's Virtualization
Conference & Expo 2007
West in San Francisco.
'Virtualization is the
hottest subject today,
From Application
Virtualization to Xen, a
round-up of the
virtualization themes &
topics being discussed in
NYC June 23-24, 2008 by
the world-class speaker
faculty at the 3rd
International
Virtualization Conference
& Expo being held by
SYS-CON Events in The
Roosevelt Hotel, in
midtown
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.gif)
Brian Stevens, the Chief
Technology Officer and
Vice President of
Engineering of Red Hat,
delivered his
Virtualization Keynote
'The Future of the
Virtual Enterprise' at
SYS-CON's Virtualization
Conference & Expo 2007
West in San Francisco.
'Virtualization is the
hottest subject today,
From Application
Virtualization to Xen, a
round-up of the
virtualization themes &
topics being discussed in
NYC June 23-24, 2008 by
the world-class speaker
faculty at the 3rd
International
Virtualization Conference
& Expo being held by
SYS-CON Events in The
Roosevelt Hotel, in
midtown 
