Not the One to Answerthis wrote: You know it if you really think about it.
Because Java plays as iut is FLOSS and it is not. So we go LAMP and say F)/= off!
And yeah, I just had Java this semester and it is true: Java SUCKS!
Next semester guess what I am taking? Python!
Long live LAMP (as in PHP right now, and PHP/Python by next year)
Stop writing crappy articles and DO Y OUR JOB! Go program some app in Java and see if anyone uses it.. And I'll gte my Google Apps account and make a Hello World over there and send you a link!
Peace
That's why!
Dylan Tynan wrote: There were 7 pages of responses above, so, I confess to only reading a couple, so, forgive me if I repeat too many points that were hashed through already.....
The question posed is why do 'cool kids' (or anyone really) choose something like PHP or Ruby rather than Java. I saw a lot of answers above that are certainly correct -- it's really a bunch of reasons of course, but I think I have a handle on the main factors, which might be a little different than the "java is too complex" crowd:
1. The primary reason is that PHP & Ruby (and others) do a great job for most web efforts, and Java does as well. The question could have easily been posed by a Ruby guy about PHP, or a PHP guy about Perl, or a Perl guy about Java. The fact is, all of them are mature enough & powerful enough to handle most web tasks (and especially intranet tasks where Internet-level scalability & redundancy are no...
Dan Tripp wrote: > Because they've been dooped into thinking you have to
> compile Java servlets and beans to use Java or that you
> need Struts or Hibernate of JSF. You don't. You can just
> do everything in JSP if you want a quick and dirty PHP or
> Ruby like Java experience.
Who have folks been "duped" by? That seems pretty absurd to me.
I'd guess, though, if anybody's been doing any "duping" it's software developers who create Java frameworks and try to pass them off as necessary and also book publishers who want to sell you books on those frameworks.
I'm no fan of the "one language to rule them all" mentality that a lot of folks seems to embrace in favor of supporting their language of choice. I agree with Chad Fowler/ Dave Thomas' assertions about learning a new language "every year*" because that keeps one engaged in learning and developing what really SHOULD matter: one's brai...
Dan Tripp wrote: I started with PHP and Perl, later spent some time learning (some) Java, and now I'm all into Ruby (and Rails).
PHP was awesome, and opened up the world of web development for me. After a while, I thought "maybe I should learn Java" so I gave it a crack and read and re-read Bruce Eckel's "Thinking in Java." I tried to wade through the acronym soup that Java Web Application Development seemed to be, but in the end my experience with Java was that it flat-out hurt my brain.
When I encountered Ruby (and Rails) it "just made sense" to me, and it continues to make sense to me. I recently worked on some PHP code for a friend, and I found it tedious and a bit irritating to work with. I'd bet that if I spent time re-learning OO PHP and used some of the cool "new" stuff (like the Cake framework, etc.), though that I'd probably dig it too.
Java flat-out hurts my brain, i think largely becau...
Tim wrote: I've worked with the spectrum of languages and environments, from mainframe Cobol, to client/server with Powerbuilder, to web with Java/JSP. The style has progressed from a monolithic 5000 line cobol program (easy to maintain) to 5000 several-line code snippets or settings in various places like taglibs and xml descriptors (a nightmare as the app grows). The mindset that goes along with Java and the way it is presented by Sun is "let's take a simple problem and give it the most complex solution possible". Case in point: JSTL. Why learn another (useless and cryptic) language when we can use java snippets and we ALL know Java already! We're already using Java, Javascript, HTML, SQL, and a framework like Struts in any given project, so why add another when its not necessary? That's the stupidity that turns people away from Java.
Deanston wrote: Same reason why JavaScript never went away despite major forces trying to ruin its USABILITY and UNIVERSAL appeal with annoying proprietary formats like VBScript, Jscript, .NET, applets, JSP/JSF/Faces, Flash, etc. The people decided that JS is still the most user friendly dynamic web standard on the browser client - and the browser is still what the web user sees first, not middleware logic - and turned out PHP/Ruby are the most efficient glue-code to put together dynamic JS for web app UI. Look at the popularity of REST, Ajax, and SOAP - the web trend is toward efficiency, not complexity. Now if the Java community can come up with a way to make 90% of the ISPs to host Java enabled sites for as cheap and simple as LAMP packages, and convince Google and others to release their APIs in Java only instead of JavaScript, maybe, just maybe, more people will learn Java.
Here is a question that I have been pondering on and off for quite a while: Why do "cool kids" choose Ruby or PHP to build websites instead of Java?
I have to admit that I do not have an answer.
Why do I even care? Because I am a Java developer. Like many Java developers, I get along with Java well. Not only the language itself, but the development environments (Eclipse for example), step-by-step debugging helper, wide availability of libraries and code snippets, and the readily accessible information on almost any technical question I may have on Java via Google. Last but not least, I go to JavaOne and see 10,000 people that talk and walk just like me.
The other reason that I ponder this question is that the power of Java is a perfect fit for the areas where websites may need more than markups or scripting, such as middleware logic. PHP and Ruby etc are cool for building pages, but they are not ideal candidates for building middleware logic. Given that Java covers the "high end" of the spectrum well (where sophisticated processing is needed), wouldn't it be great to use Java all the way?
Is it Java as a programming language too difficult to use, comparing with those scripting oriented interpreted languages? Yes, this maybe the reason. But there are 5 million Java developers out there already, and millions of developers make a living by write server side Java code. A lot of websites are built by these Java developers, and somehow they choose to use PHP or Ruby instead. Why? It is even more puzzling that I have seen quite a few Enterprise Java people decided against Java - when they decided to build their web 2.0 site, they went for PHP even though they have to learn PHP.
Is it the lack of tooling? I think there are more tools for Java than, say, Ruby.
Is it the lack of frameworks? I bet there are more Java frameworks than the population in China.
OK, a lot of websites are fairly simple, mainly composed of markup pages, scripts and some lightweight logic on the server side, where PHP and Ruby are good for. Java maybe an overkill for such websites. But there are a lot of websites that are much more sophisticated than "lightweight" logic on the server side. For example, FaceBook was relatively simple initially, but now with FaceBook API and Platform, its complexity is growing. Why not use Java for such websites?
So what is missing from the Java world? What is the ideal architecture to build a website using Java?
Option 1: JSP/Servlet with a Java Servlet engine (or even an application server): This is the dominant architecture for Enterprise web applications. But it clearly has not been appealing for building websites in comparison to PHP or Ruby;
Option 2: JavaServer Faces: JSF is the new kid on the block. Is it going to make building websites easier? Probably not. It is designed for simplifying building form-based applications.
Option 3: Using a Java based content management system (CMS)? I have come across many CMS systems over the last few years, and haven't been impressed by anyone of them.
So what is the ideal architecture for building a highly scalable, sophisticated (potentially. Your site will become sophisticated if your site is very successful), easy to build and easy to maintain website, while using Java?
About Coach Wei Coach Wei is the Founder and Chairman of Nexaweb (www.nexaweb.com), developers of the leading software platform for building and deploying Web 2.0 and AJAX applications. Previously, he played a key role at EMC Corporation in the development of a new generation of storage network management software. Wei has his master's degree from MIT, holds several patents, is the author of several technology publications including JDJ, Web 2.0 Journal, and AJAXWorld Magazine, and is an industry advocate for the proliferation of open standards.
Not the One to Answerthis wrote: You know it if you really think about it.
Because Java plays as iut is FLOSS and it is not. So we go LAMP and say F)/= off!
And yeah, I just had Java this semester and it is true: Java SUCKS!
Next semester guess what I am taking? Python!
Long live LAMP (as in PHP right now, and PHP/Python by next year)
Stop writing crappy articles and DO Y OUR JOB! Go program some app in Java and see if anyone uses it.. And I'll gte my Google Apps account and make a Hello World over there and send you a link!
Peace
That's why!
Dylan Tynan wrote: There were 7 pages of responses above, so, I confess to only reading a couple, so, forgive me if I repeat too many points that were hashed through already.....
The question posed is why do 'cool kids' (or anyone really) choose something like PHP or Ruby rather than Java. I saw a lot of answers above that are certainly correct -- it's really a bunch of reasons of course, but I think I have a handle on the main factors, which might be a little different than the "java is too complex" crowd:
1. The primary reason is that PHP & Ruby (and others) do a great job for most web efforts, and Java does as well. The question could have easily been posed by a Ruby guy about PHP, or a PHP guy about Perl, or a Perl guy about Java. The fact is, all of them are mature enough & powerful enough to handle most web tasks (and especially intranet tasks where Internet-level scalability & redundancy are no...
Dan Tripp wrote: > Because they've been dooped into thinking you have to
> compile Java servlets and beans to use Java or that you
> need Struts or Hibernate of JSF. You don't. You can just
> do everything in JSP if you want a quick and dirty PHP or
> Ruby like Java experience.
Who have folks been "duped" by? That seems pretty absurd to me.
I'd guess, though, if anybody's been doing any "duping" it's software developers who create Java frameworks and try to pass them off as necessary and also book publishers who want to sell you books on those frameworks.
I'm no fan of the "one language to rule them all" mentality that a lot of folks seems to embrace in favor of supporting their language of choice. I agree with Chad Fowler/ Dave Thomas' assertions about learning a new language "every year*" because that keeps one engaged in learning and developing what really SHOULD matter: one's brai...
Dan Tripp wrote: I started with PHP and Perl, later spent some time learning (some) Java, and now I'm all into Ruby (and Rails).
PHP was awesome, and opened up the world of web development for me. After a while, I thought "maybe I should learn Java" so I gave it a crack and read and re-read Bruce Eckel's "Thinking in Java." I tried to wade through the acronym soup that Java Web Application Development seemed to be, but in the end my experience with Java was that it flat-out hurt my brain.
When I encountered Ruby (and Rails) it "just made sense" to me, and it continues to make sense to me. I recently worked on some PHP code for a friend, and I found it tedious and a bit irritating to work with. I'd bet that if I spent time re-learning OO PHP and used some of the cool "new" stuff (like the Cake framework, etc.), though that I'd probably dig it too.
Java flat-out hurts my brain, i think largely becau...
Tim wrote: I've worked with the spectrum of languages and environments, from mainframe Cobol, to client/server with Powerbuilder, to web with Java/JSP. The style has progressed from a monolithic 5000 line cobol program (easy to maintain) to 5000 several-line code snippets or settings in various places like taglibs and xml descriptors (a nightmare as the app grows). The mindset that goes along with Java and the way it is presented by Sun is "let's take a simple problem and give it the most complex solution possible". Case in point: JSTL. Why learn another (useless and cryptic) language when we can use java snippets and we ALL know Java already! We're already using Java, Javascript, HTML, SQL, and a framework like Struts in any given project, so why add another when its not necessary? That's the stupidity that turns people away from Java.
Deanston wrote: Same reason why JavaScript never went away despite major forces trying to ruin its USABILITY and UNIVERSAL appeal with annoying proprietary formats like VBScript, Jscript, .NET, applets, JSP/JSF/Faces, Flash, etc. The people decided that JS is still the most user friendly dynamic web standard on the browser client - and the browser is still what the web user sees first, not middleware logic - and turned out PHP/Ruby are the most efficient glue-code to put together dynamic JS for web app UI. Look at the popularity of REST, Ajax, and SOAP - the web trend is toward efficiency, not complexity. Now if the Java community can come up with a way to make 90% of the ISPs to host Java enabled sites for as cheap and simple as LAMP packages, and convince Google and others to release their APIs in Java only instead of JavaScript, maybe, just maybe, more people will learn Java.
Aptana announced the acquisition of Pydev. The combination of Pydev with Aptana Studio, which is approaching 2.3 million downloads, will bring Aptana's excellence in AJAX development ease to the Python community and bring Python support to Aptana's product lines. The move further reinf...
Two of the biggest launches in Rich Internet Application history took place in 2007/2008 when Adobe launched AIR 1.0 in February '08 and Microsoft launched Silverlight (September '07). At the 6th International AJAXWorld RIA Conference & Expo in October SYS-CON Events is delighted to be...
Red Hat CTO Brian Stevens, Citrix CTO Simon Crosby, Egenera CTO Pete Manca, Allen Stewart, Group Manager, Windows Virtualization at Microsoft, and Brian Duckering, Sr. Director of Products and Alliances at Symantec were the top industry executives who joined Jeremy Geelan in the 4th Fl...
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Two of the biggest launches in Rich Internet Application history took place in 2007/2008 when Adobe launched AIR 1.0 in February '08 and Microsoft launched Silverlight (September '07). At the 6th International AJAXWorld RIA Conference & Expo in October SYS-CON Events is delighted to be...
Red Hat CTO Brian Stevens, Citrix CTO Simon Crosby, Egenera CTO Pete Manca, Allen Stewart, Group Manager, Windows Virtualization at Microsoft, and Brian Duckering, Sr. Director of Products and Alliances at Symantec were the top industry executives who joined Jeremy Geelan in the 4th Fl...
